Forum:Settling the "z" versus "s" debate...
Most of us know that in the Queens English, often the "z" in certain words (like lazer, organize, etc.) will be replaced with an "s." I have seen many a revert war over the use and replacement of either on this wiki. I think it is time to settle this once and for all. So here is my take. Borderlands was made by Americans from an American company in the United States. The proper spelling on this wiki of any words in question ought to employ the "z" when appropriate, and not the "s."GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 20:04, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :RE: AtlasSoldier talk page: International spelling is irrelevant for the reasons mentioned above. GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 20:08, September 15, 2010 (UTC) ::This wiki however is home to an international selection of people. We will get righteously ticked off if you try to convince us that Light Amplified by S'''timulated Emission of Radiation should be written with a "Z". We will also use said LASER to burn '''colour into your arse before feeding you to skags. -- WarBlade 20:09, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Yeah, yeah, I'll concede laser simply because it's like SCUBA (can't think of the word to call those; brain fart), but the Wiki is for the description and discussion of an American game, hence the wiki should reflect that. If it were a British or South African game, I would go the other way.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 20:14, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :SCUBA - Self-Contained Underwater Breathing Aparatus :@Conceited: I believe the word you're looking for is Acronym. Cheers mate, B-) GT: sc0rchedearth (360) :::@ConceitedJarrad. The wiki is maintained by an international selection of people who have marginally different written word 'dialects'. Where an American spelling is used in an in-game designation then we use that spelling for the article name; "Artifact". Please note that your attempt to correct me and your suggestion that MY text output should conform to an American standard is something I find personally offensive. -- WarBlade 20:23, September 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::Well, good sir, I don't see why you wouldn't assume I find it personally offensive when I see words that are in the correct format in my language reformatted. I mean I don't, and it's absolutely silly if you actually do. The point is that the entire argument is really subjective, but the best arbiter we have is the origin of the game, and that is what should dictate it, not how people would "like" it to read.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 20:35, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :::::The game has no bearing on the text output of contributors of this wiki. We're not writing content to be included within Borderlands, we're writing documentation text about Borderlands. Would you expect an American newspaper to switch to UK spelling if they happen to draft an article about pollution in the Thames? The "best arbiter" of a wiki is the community that contributes to its content. -- WarBlade 20:45, September 15, 2010 (UTC) wikia is a community. a global community. note the ES on the front page (admittedly he has done little with it). please respect your fellow editors. it was decided long, long ago in galaxy far, far away (JAN09, Poland and wherever Lob is from) to allow international spelling. the debate has passed. 1557hrs local 15SEP10 ^^Biased^^. At any rate, "allowance" is a totally different story. How about we just leave edits alone, and leave it the way it was spelled by the original editor, then?GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 21:30, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :^this^ was my intended meaning, to not revert or revise (revize?) international spellings. 22:01, September 15, 2010 (UTC) "Borderlands was made by Americans from an American company in the United States" Awful argument. English was made by English people in England. Therefore use 's'. "Most of us know that in the Queens English, often the "z" in certain words (like lazer, organize, etc.) will be replaced with an "s."" Surely you mean: in American English, the "s" is replaced by a "z". Oddly enough, English is from England, not America. As a proud British citizen I personally despise any Americanisms, but I think it's only right that anything in the Wiki in direct reference to the game is spelled in the same manner as in the game. In my prefix table I have endeavoured to match all the spellings to how they are in game, I can't remember the number of times I wrote the incorrect 'Recoiless' as 'Recoilless'; as it should be spelled. In short, write stuff in the game as it is in the game, write your articles as you normally write. 21:36, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :agreed, in game spelling trumps. - The Evil Dr. F Um, there's no need to go pulling out the nationalism guns. I'm not saying one way is better than the other, only that one way is the way it should be in relation to the game. GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 21:46, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :::I realize this debate is mostly my fault for changing the letters, but I have an explanation. As I stated in one of my edit summaries, I had turned on the "Check my spelling as I type" feature in FireFox, and started loading up pages here on the Wiki, and going through them looking for spelling errors. Anything that FireFox felt was wrong, it underlined with a red squiggly line. Heck, even on this page FireFox is showing several errors, and I'll list them so we can have a good laugh at this: Btw, you guys like the Hidden template I saw on Wikipedia and brought here? It's really useful! :::Now, as for things like "organize" vs "organise", try sounding each word out. Sure, some words with "ise" are pronounced "ize", but it's incorrect spelling nonetheless. Organize is the proper way to spell the word. Organise however sounds like "organice". Anywho, to end this reply, I'm gonna restate that I am Canadian, and obviously the Canadian way of spelling certain words differs from the American/British way. From now on, while I'm doing my bad spelling checks, if I see a misspelled word that I know has different spelling between America/Britain/Canada, I'll leave it alone (unless it's the word "organise". I'm switching any instances of that to "organize". :P) AtlasSoldier 21:48, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :Oh yeah, I almost forgot; Nobody spells LASER "LAZER" except for like, sci-fi games and such. Laser is the proper spelling :) AtlasSoldier 21:49, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Erm, no. "Organize" is NOT the correct way to spell the word. It's "Organise". That's how every -ise word in English is done. It's how it's written in the dictionary, it's how it's spelled. CJ: sorry, but ultimately we agree :P 21:53, September 15, 2010 (UTC) ::Yes, it's "English". It's "Commonwealth English" which I'm pretty sure only British folk use. This is a Wikia, and as it's been stated above, Borderlands was made by an American company. Let's use the "new age" english spelling, using "ize" that I, and everyone I know, was taught to use back in elementary/grade school english class. By the way, if you want a source for my "Commonwealth English" comment check Energize on Wiktionary. "Energise" is labelled as an "Alternative Spelling", and sourced as being used in Commonwealth English. AtlasSoldier 22:02, September 15, 2010 (UTC) ::Also, I just found some interesting reading. Take a look: *"Organize" on Webster's Dictionary Online - "Organize" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1413. *"Organise" on Webster's Dictionary Online - "Organise" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1745. ::Organize has been used in English since 1413. Organise must've been adapted over 300 years later. AtlasSoldier 22:05, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :note use of the word popular. 22:08, September 15, 2010 (UTC) : "-ize" is the direct transcription of Greek. "-ise" the the practically unanimous British spelling. I live here, and nobody writes "-ize". And by the way Atlas, "only British folk" is 60 million people. It's also used in many former British colonies. It's not a "new age" spelling, it's the American spelling. 22:15, September 15, 2010 (UTC) ::(The Evil Dr. F's note - U.S. population = ~ 300 million) ::As Dr. F said: *Britain - 60,000,000 *America - ~300,000,000 (no clue what the ~ is for) - You're outnumbered Britain :P ::And I guess this needs saying again as well. Borderlands was made by an American company, so let's keep the spelling Americanized. I don't want to say "I guarantee", but I'm pretty darn sure that if we switched all instances of "IZE" to "ISE", we'd have alot of IP edits coming in changing the spelling back. Just sayin' :\ AtlasSoldier 22:25, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :: Dammit, no nationalism please. I would have been content to never have even brought this little schism to the forefront had I not seen so many of the British folks going back and "correcting" Americanized edits. This isn't totally one-sided.22:28, September 15, 2010 (UTC) the symbol ~ means approximately or about (around). and The Evil Dr. F stated above that international spelling is recognis/zed on wikia. changing is unnecessary in either direction. 22:34, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Since when do rules have ANYTHING to do with numbers? If I made an army of 11 billion rapists, would that make all the remaining non-rapists wrong? And yet again, that's a retarded argument. I can just as easily say that English was made by English people, so keep the spelling Anglicised. 22:30, September 15, 2010 (UTC) LOL, dude, you were the one who brought numbers into it.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 22:33, September 15, 2010 (UTC) My only point was that "only British folk" is not exactly an insignificant number. 22:34, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Dammit, no nationalism please. I would have been content to never have even brought this little schism to the forefront had I not seen so many of the British folks going back and "correcting" Americanized edits. This isn't totally one-sided.22:28, September 15, 2010 (UTC) <--I'm not sure what to make of this sentence. On one hand, I see "had I not seen so many of the British folks going back and "correcting" Americanized edits", and on the other hand, "This isn't totally one-sided" confuses me. Somebody explain what he means by "This isn't totally one-sided". Keep in mind I'm running on little-to-no sleep (my body's sleep schedule is whacked and I have to get up at 8am for college. But lately I've been up til 4am, sleeping for 2 and a half hours) and because of sleep deprivation even the simplest of concepts aren't making any sense to me. AtlasSoldier 23:02, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Flame On: HeHe: I think we can all agree that either spelling is correct as they are both English (American/British).So lets just leave them alone as i for one have seen on problem with either spelling. And i believe what was trying to be said is that both sides (american/Brithish) have been changing it back and forth, so again just leave it alone.Veggienater 23:25, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Laser shouldn't have a Z no matter who spells it as the term "laser" is an acronym for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. I think the only reason "lazer" exists is it sounds more science-fictiony and "cooler" 23:45, September 15, 2010 (UTC) SOLUTION: Install a widget that makes the controvesial spelling of certain words appear as "-ize" for the American log-in community, and as "-ise" for the British log in community. Has this ever been mentioned to wikia staff? BMetcalf82 23:49, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :Pardon my francais, but GOOD FUCKIN' IDEA!!! You sir are a genius. I was so sick of British users on Wikia's I used to frequent undoing my edits to pages where I corrected the spelling of certain words (especially pissed me off if the Wikia was about like, an American-created TV show or something). Then of course I'd get the cocky brits leaving retarded messages on my talk page, ripping on me for being Canadian and "not knowing how to spell words properly". A few hearty fuck you's and some cheap shots at Britain in general later, and they'd know not to mess with me >=). Now, I don't have anything against anyone here who is British, so don't come attacking me with your DJ Pie Safety's, and Weebl & Bobs, and knives and such. (D-D-DJ PIE SAFETY!). Regardless, I'd suggest leaving a message on Uberfuzzy's talk page, or Angela's talk page and explain your idea, and how it'd completely stop this idiotic problem with people wanting to revert the spelling of certain words to YE OLDE ENGLISH >.> AtlasSoldier 00:27, September 16, 2010 (UTC) : Who exactly do you think you are AtlasSiolder(yes i spelled it wrong on purpose). No one asked you to correct the spelling on any of these pages, so YOUR corretions of British or anyone elses words were unneeded. If you are that OCD that everthing has to be spelled YOUR way then you need therapy. I think your previous sysop experience has you thinking you have more authority than you do. You have already pissed off two people on here and youve only been here a short while. YOU are not that importent and if your arrogance in this regaurd continues, I for one will ask for your bannishment , which is major as i am an easy going person normally. YOU are the reason this wiki needs a flaming rules page much to everones dismay.Veggienater 01:36, September 16, 2010 (UTC) at this point i have to ask myself if anyone reads what i write on these forums or have they decided what needs to be said from the title or the last summary. please read what The Evil Dr. F has written. and be advis/zed the next user to edit this page without some productive to say gets a time-out. You Have Been Warned I'm risking my ass to speak my mind....once again. You know what, I'm willing to risk getting a "time-out" to say this. *'"No one asked you to correct the spelling on any of these pages"' :It doesn't fucking matter if anyone asked me to or not. I took it upon myself to correct some spelling. Big fucking whoop. And I didn't just run around changing spelling from British to American. Take a look at my Spelling/Grammar fix labeled contribs. I fixed things like "repective" to "respective" and such. But shit, I make one little edit and switch "Energise" to "Energize", and next thing I know, the community has started YET ANOTHER DISCUSSION about something so pointless and miniscule just like that other discussion (Flaming rules, anyone?). And no, I'm not OCD over spelling. Alot of people like to go around correcting spelling mistakes. It's a good way to pass the time. *'"You are not important and if your arrogance in this regard continues, I for one will ask for your banishment"' :Fucking try me. *'"YOU are the reason this wiki needs a flaming rules page much to everones dismay."' :It occurs to me that you've forgotten about something. After the little incident involving myself, ConceitedJarrad, Nagamarky and GnarlyToaster, I apologized to them for my actions and words, and even VOLUNTARILY ASKED DR. F TO BAN ME BECAUSE CONCEITED GOT BANNED, AND IT WAS BECAUSE OF ME. Fairs fair, I thought. I did the honorable thing and requested a ban for myself. Therefore, I believe using the phrase "everyones dismay" does not qualify in this situation. *'"Who exactly do you think you are"' :Who the fuck do you think you are?! We were having a nice normal discussion/debate, and you had to come in here, all guns-a-fuckin'-blazing and ruin the nice discussion we had going with your pointless, stupid fucking flaming. Love to see that something so small as me changing 1 letter in a word can get your thong in a bunch. Read this. Quoting Bukkithead now: "Yeah, I agree, Veggie's post was quite out of order. I'm also glad you viewed it as a productive discussion". You know, I could direct your attention to Wikipedia, or the Fallout Wikia, and tell you to go find one BIG page (and I mean a big page, like the Wikipedia page for Sir John A. MacDonald), and look for 1 instance of Commonwealth English (aka any words like "Energize", but spelt "Energise", or "Organise") , but I won't. Hell, it shouldn't be hard to come to a decision on this stupidity. ConceitedJarrad raised a valid point when he said Borderlands was made by an American company, therefore we should be using American spelling, as opposed to randomly ramming S's up the arses of any words that have a "Z" in them, like Energize and Organize. Now, I'm going outside to have a smoke and cool off, then I'm going to bed because I've got to be at college first thing tomorrow morning and lack of sleep sucks. (It's 10:11PM right now, and I've gotta be up at 6am). And hey, if I do end up getting a "time-out", I'm ok with it. I remained civil throughout this original discussion and provided some good hard facts and such until Veggie came in and fucked everything up. Tomorrow I'll be getting in contact with Uberfuzzy and Sannse to see if it's possible to implement that idea up the page about changing what kind of English is shown based on what country you live in. Shouldn't be that hard to implement. If a user sets location to England, change every instance of an Americanized word (Energized for example) to it's British counterpart (Energise.) AtlasSoldier 02:32, September 16, 2010 (UTC) 6/10. Marginal.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 03:24, September 16, 2010 (UTC) Also, it was a little pitchy in the middle, dawg.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 03:25, September 16, 2010 (UTC) What a bunch of nonsense! Widgets to auto-correct spelling? Even when the spelling is intentional?! Like I said, this is all "Big Brother" BS. Well, I'm going to purposely mispelling everything and start correcting 'your' posts to *MY* New World Order! -- MeMadeIt 09:31, September 16, 2010 (UTC) It was good dawg, but not great. Liked some of the vocals...gettin' a little pitchy there toward the end. I dunno. I'ma say it's a no for me, dawg.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 16:49, September 16, 2010 (UTC) Not to add fuel to the fire, but there is no such thing as a Lazer. LASER is an acronym. It Doesn't matter what country you come from, Light Amplification by Simulation of Radiation. User:Inquisitor Conners 19:15, September 17, 2010 (ACST) :You haven't added any fuel to the fire. You've tried to relight it well after anything combustible has been swept off the scene. The laser acronym was pointed out five minutes after the thread started and that was more than two days ago. ;) -- WarBlade 11:19, September 17, 2010 (UTC) That is the 3rd time someone has brought that up, in fact. Read the freaking threads, people. sheesh.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 15:35, September 17, 2010 (UTC) Reading this thread has made me want to smack people with computer monitors for idiocy instead of hax. In my opinion, this entire thread should be placed here because of its ultimate topic. 17:35, September 17, 2010 (UTC) :ill second that opinion doctor. 1249hrs local 17SEP10 Hey, my original intent was for unity among the articles. I didn't know people were going to take personal offense over grammar.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 17:52, September 17, 2010 (UTC) :your original intent, according to your opening statement counselor, was to call for a change from the practice of patience and tolerance and having it both ways to a practice of doing it the american way. uniformity by conformity is not unity, it is tyranny. and as i stated before this was settled long before i became a sysop, it is an non-event. it is much ado about christmas past. 22:00, September 17, 2010 (UTC) That's not entirely fair. #) I had no idea this had been done before; #) I was trying to establish a consistent standard, and merely gave my OPINION on it. In no way did I try to FORCE anyone to change their practice. If you can show me a case where tyranny has existed without force, then I'll retract this post and apologize.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 22:06, September 17, 2010 (UTC) :yes, you stated your opinion. i corrected your statement about your original intent adding superfluos language along the way (i became enamoured of the tyranny and much ado parts and could not bring myself to remove them). to the best of my knowledge there has never been a pacifist tyranny, thank you for the puzzler. i desire your retraction and apology not in the least and i cannot imagine what i or anybody would want you to apologiz/se for. disagreeing with me? how dare you? ;0) 22:49, September 17, 2010 (UTC) Uh i only ever saw LAZER written by people who didnt know how to spell LASER. Acronyms can only have one spelling right? -=- feral guyver -=- The LASER thing has been settled numerous times already in this thread. It's time to let it go.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 21:56, September 17, 2010 (UTC) Yeah, but what about LAZAR?! -- MeMadeIt 22:52, September 17, 2010 (UTC)